COMMENTS: 115
Are Antidepressants Faith-Based Treatment?
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Answering that question would be much easier if: (1) the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) revealed all drug study findings without requiring a Freedom of Information Act request, (2) drug studies with negative results were routinely published in medical journals, (3) the FDA did not rely on drug company studies employing biased research designs, (4) FDA advisory panels did not include advisers financially connected to drug companies and (5) the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) did not fund drug studies by researchers who have financial relationships with drug companies.
The good news? There are antidepressant researchers without ties to drug companies, and there is wisdom about overcoming depression that remains available.
On Jan. 17, 2008, the New England Journal of Medicine analyzed both published and unpublished antidepressant studies registered with the FDA between 1987-2004. Examining 12 antidepressants, Dr. Erick H. Turner, a former FDA medical reviewer, and his research team included data gained via the Freedom of Information Act.
Dr. Turner discovered that most studies with negative results were never published in journals, and so doctors had no way of knowing how poorly antidepressants have actually fared. While 94 percent of antidepressant studies published in journals show antidepressants to be more effective than placebos, only 51 percent of all registered studies were determined by the FDA to show antidepressants superior to placebos.
Why are most negative results not published in journals? Drug studies are routinely funded by the drug's manufacturer, which has no interest in the publication of negative results. Also, medical journals are increasingly dependent on advertising revenue from drug companies, which results in a disincentive to publish negative results.
Antidepressant advocates point out that when comparing all research subjects, antidepressants retain an advantage -- albeit a modest one -- over placebos. However, that belief is based on studies funded by drug companies, utilizing research designs biased in favor of antidepressants.
One such research-design bias is the use of depression measurements that weigh heavily depression symptoms most likely to improve with antidepressants (such as sleep problems and agitation), and weigh less heavily depression symptoms not as likely to improve with antidepressants (such as suicidal thoughts and joylessness).
Why does the FDA allow measurement bias and other dice loading that favors antidepressants? Marcia Angell, former editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, concludes that the FDA has been compromised by drug companies. Dr. Angell reports that, for example, in the majority of FDA drug-approval advisory meetings through 2000, half or more of the FDA advisers had conflicts of interest -- financial relationships with drug companies.
A critical scientific standard in drug studies is the double-blind control (neither subject nor experimenter knows who is getting the drug and who is getting the placebo), but drug-company antidepressant studies use blinds that can be peeked through. How? Inactive placebos such as sugar pills, which don't create side effects, are used, and so subjects can more easily guess if they are getting the actual drug. In order to make it more difficult to penetrate the blind, an active placebo, which creates side effects, should be used. In 2000, a Psychiatric Times article concluded: "In fact, when antidepressants are compared with active placebos, there appear to be no differences in clinical effectiveness."
In addition to biased depression measurements and an absence of a true double blind control, the FDA also accepts antidepressant research in which subjects who respond favorably to placebos are weeded out from final trials.
Thus, it is especially embarrassing for antidepressant manufacturers that despite research-design biases in favor of antidepressants, these drugs achieve superiority to placebos in only 51 percent of the studies.
In a widely covered announcement in March 2006, NIMH reported that 50 percent of depressed people experience remission of symptoms in a two-step treatment study (which ultimately would include four steps) called Sequential Treatment Alternatives to Relieve Depression (STAR*D). Unannounced by NIMH and STAR*D researchers -- who had financial relationships with antidepressant manufacturers -- was that for each of these antidepressant treatment steps, remission rates were lower than or equal to the customary placebo performance in other antidepressant studies (there was no placebo control in this $35 million U.S. taxpayer-funded STAR*D study).
Moreover, NIMH and STAR*D researchers neglected to mention that in the same time it took to complete steps one and two of STAR*D (slightly over six months), previous research shows that depressed people receiving no treatment at all have a spontaneous remission rate of 50 percent -- this identical to STAR*D results over that same time span. Worse yet, by the time all four STAR*D's treatment steps had been completed, relapse rates were so high that the November 2006 American Journal of Psychiatry calculated the actual cumulative remission rate to be, at best, 43 percent.
The most benign thing that one can say about drug companies' efforts in creating faith in antidepressants is that faith is a significant reason these antidepressants are effective at all. In 2004, the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry reported that among those depressed patients expecting an experimental antidepressant to be "very effective," 90 percent had a positive response (not necessarily remission); while among those expecting the medication to be "somewhat effective," only 33 percent had a positive response. Depressed people with "no faith" in antidepressants were not included in this study, but such nonbelievers rarely tell me about having a positive response with antidepressants. As one might expect, drug companies do nothing to ensure that depressed people who have little or no faith in antidepressants are proportionately included in studies.
More than a century ago, psychologist and philosopher William James understood the importance of belief, faith and expectations, or what scientists now call the "placebo effect." "Faith in a fact can help create the fact," James famously observed in his essay, "The Will to Believe." James was a tough-minded scientist, but when it came to discovering an antidote to his own, often debilitating, states of depression, he came to "believe in belief." James, however, knew that while any given belief may "work," it also may have undesirable side effects. So he pragmatically considered many beliefs before choosing to believe that "life shall [be built in] doing and suffering and creating."
Different faiths fit different temperaments. I know people who have overcome depression with antidepressants, psychotherapy, prayer, philosophy, political activism, dietary supplements, art, exercise and other approaches. Science has no clear favorites and invites pluralism. However, we should not be cavalier in what we choose to believe, because our beliefs determine in no small way what kind of people we are and what kind of effect we have on society.
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Posted by: wisegalah on Feb 28, 2008 3:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All conflicts of interest must be prominently published, including the constant cross flow of individuals from the drug companies and regulatory authorities.
Anyone moving from one to the other should be required to wait for a full two years between leaving one and joining the other, AND the previous connections published with every decision in which that individual is involved.
All studies must be publically and freely available at the cost of the drug companies, all including those which produce findings which serve the public's interest. Heavy penalties for companies which hide information which does not serve their interests but which is of importance to the general public.
And this is just the start.
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Posted by: Peter111000 on Feb 28, 2008 3:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Science and scientists present themselves as objective and honest but are, in truth, bought and paid for by the businesses that own them.
This is not just in the medical industries but across all industries. University science depends on industry for funding. If there are any honest individual scientists why are they not saying this loudly and often?
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» RE: The ownership of science
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The ownership of science
Posted by: stellabloo
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Posted by: Brian Charles on Feb 28, 2008 3:59 AM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7263494.stm
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Posted by: Shey on Feb 28, 2008 5:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These effects range over a wide spectrum of symptoms, perhaps the most common being IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) so severe as to be debilitating in daily life. These same symptoms can occur while taking these drugs, although when they begin during withdrawal, they often improve or disappear temporarily when medication is started again.
You wont find this information on any website or in any publication that has any connection to the FDA or the NIH, much less the pharma companies that make these drugs. But there are antidepressant withdrawal support groups all over the Internet.
Of course there are also shockingly serious mental and emotional side effects involved in the attempt to withdraw from antidepressant dependency as well, including a return of depression far more severe that what was experienced before taking them in the first place, including suicidal tendencies.
These problems are especially severe with SSRI's (Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil) and even more widely experienced and severe with the newer class of "atypical antidepressants" (Effexor, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin and Serzone), the latter (Serzone) being quietly taken off the market several years ago because of serious links to suicides and attempted suicides, in people of all ages.
These "atypical antidepressants" combine the workings of SSRI's with targeting neurotransmitters other than the usual ones associated with Serotonin.
From this website,
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/medications_depression.htm
"In may 2007, the FDA recommended a new warning label for all antidepressant medications. The current 'black box' label includes a warning about the increased risk if suicidal thinking and behavior in children and adolescents.
The FDA wants to expand this warning to include young adults from ages 18-24. Children and young adults should also be monitored for the emergence of agitation, irritability and unusual changes in behavior, as these symptoms indicate that the depression is getting worse."
Is anyone actually listening,?? We're really supposed to believe that age 24 is some magical cut-off point beyond which no one will be at risk for these literally life threatening "side effects"?
Wake up people, Aldous Huxley's Soma was an aspirin, compared to what we're ingesting today, doing possibly irreparable damage to both out bodies and minds.
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» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: kabac55
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: Shey
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: tsprague
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: tsprague
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: kabac55
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: solrev on Feb 28, 2008 5:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ladyoracle on Feb 28, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Think what you will, I don't care. But for me, it took Prozac to help me entertain the non-self-destructive thoughts and implement them in even the most banal moments of "crisis."
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» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: lissajayne
» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: EdinIowa
» It's called depression, smart-ass!
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It's called depression, smart-ass!
Posted by: Shey
» There any peer-reviewed studies that back that? (NT)
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: There any peer-reviewed studies that back that? (NT)
Posted by: zenbruder
» One case doesn't a study make (NT)
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: One case doesn't a study make (NT)
Posted by: YogiBear
» I feel a lot better...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: I feel a lot better...
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: nobody4prez on Feb 28, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Feb 28, 2008 6:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They spend more on marketing and public relations efforts than just about any other industry, much of which is dishonest and is targeted at doctors and at patients. They also work overtime to cover up the negative side effects or inconclusive results in their studies.
What's sad is how many people buy into the marketing and propaganda. Big Pharma has managed to create non-existent "diseases" out of thin air, most notably ADHD, and they've also managed to replace therapy and therapy-drug models for treating depression and mental illness with a daily high-dose drug regimen (far more profitable for pharmaceutical companies).
These massive and far-reaching PR campaigns extend from the professor's offices at the most prestigious universities in the U.S., all across the print, television, radio, and Internet, and even into remote Third World countries (where more and more of the new drug trials are carried out, safe from watching eyes).
It's a big, ugly mess - and a very profitable one, which is why things continue under business as usual (notice how pharmaceutical drugs haven't come much during the "vigorous health care debate" between the Presidential candidates?).
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 28, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GO LOCAL AND GROW YOUR OWN NATURAL MEDICINES AND FIGHT TO TEAR DOWN THE HEMP BAN WALL !! Like food, going local is the only way we're going to be prepared to survive the big PEAK OIL BOMB !
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» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: Shey
» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: zenbruder
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Posted by: kclaf on Feb 28, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It has been
Posted by: irisgray
» RE: It has been
Posted by: Shey
» RE: It has been
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: It has been
Posted by: Shey
» RE: It has been
Posted by: ndm
» And yet, your experience is ONLY as an energy therapist, right...?
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: brunowe on Feb 28, 2008 6:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is one thing if someone goes to a G.P., describes symptoms of depression and gets a Paxil prescription and it's left at that. It's something else if the decision is made in the course of psychotherapy and the prescription is either given by the therapist (if a psychiatrist) or by a psychiatrist who is in touch with the therapist and if the effects are monitored in the subsequent therapy.
Much has been made, legitimately, of the role of Big Pharma in this. The role of HMOs also needs to be spotlighted. They are inclined to favor pharmaceuticals over therapy because the former are cheaper.
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Posted by: opmoc on Feb 28, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know this from the fact that my sister took one of these drugs for over 20 years - and also from other research about the condition.
I've never taken anything for it - but was considering asking my doctor to prescribe it.
The story of how these drugs got approval is absolutely horrendous and I am now convinced that my sister's early death was due to taking one of them.
DEADLY MEDICINE link
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Posted by: steven w on Feb 28, 2008 7:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» correction: "a peanut hull"
Posted by: steven w
» RE: correction: "a peanut hull"
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: I do not really know if it faith-based or not,
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: I do not really know if it faith-based or not,
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: steven w on Feb 28, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: garry minor on Feb 28, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I have no doubt these drugs do help some people, there are other much safer drugs and treatments that we could be using that we never hear of. Its the same censorship that robbed us of the most useful plant on the planet during the 1930's, which itself could be used to transform our world into a place we wouldn't need these antidepressants, the safest medicine on the planet, kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp!
In 2006 at the Memorial University of Newfoundland, a researcher named Xia Zhang discovered that THC actually promotes the growth of new brain cells, improving memory, fighting depression and mood disorders. THC was also clinically proven to destroy tumors by Dr. Manuel Guzman of Complutense University of Madrid Spain in 2000. Our Government knew this in 1974. THC is also proven to prevent Alzheimers, and cannabinoids are being used in Canada and Europe to treat MS, autism, epilepsy, diabetes, migraine, arthritis, obesity, chronic pain, asthma, emphysema, herpes, skin disorders, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, OCD, Crohns disease, and more. The only side effects being an increased appetite which is a healthy condition and it makes you feel good! OH NO!!! All mammals birds, fish and reptiles have cannabinoid receptors throughout their body that work independent of those that govern the heart and breathing. This is why cannabis cannot kill you!
Further, anything made from oil, coal, timber, or cotton can be made ecological friendly with cannabis hemp. All paper, plastics, packaging, paints, varnishes, fuels, lubricants, textiles, plywood, structural components, many cosmetics, and health foods can all be made with it, over 25,0000 known products. Canvas is Dutch for cannabis. Its seed is the single most nutritious thing you can eat! Henry Ford built and fueled a car primarily with hemp, its cellulose plastic panels ten times stronger than steel. Neither he or Diesel intended to run their engines with petroleum. One acre of hemp equals four of timber for pulp and you harvest it every year, tree's take a lifetime. It is at the very minimum four times more efficient than corn, kenaf, or sugar cane for ethanol production. It grows without most fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in climates and conditions other crops wont grow.
Cannabis hemp industrialization will create millions of Earth friendly jobs from the farm to the laboratory, begin a redistribution of wealth, bringing in a world of social harmony and peace. No need to fight over oil or chop down any more tree's.
Kaneh bosm is also the main ingredient in the Holy Oil God instructed Moses to make in Exodus 30:23, and is named as an incense tree in Song of Songs 4:14. It is also named In Isaiah 43:24, Jeremiah 6:20, and Ezekiel 27:19. The title Christ/Messiah means literally covered in oil, Anointed! Calamus, the plant the Greeks mistranslated from the Hebrew Kaneh bosm could also be quite effective in treating mood disorders as its active chemical asarone is a precursor to the psychedelic MDMA, which is now being used to treat PTSD in combat veterans.
Food, fuel, shelter, medicine, pleasure, spirituality, unity! The Tree of Life, kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp!
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» RE: Why are we so depressed?
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Why are we so depressed?
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Why are we so depressed?
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» Don't bogart that joint, my friend...
Posted by: Cooltruth
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Posted by: xvictor on Feb 28, 2008 8:00 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: babs
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: xvictor
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: xvictor
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Posted by: dsmidiman on Feb 28, 2008 8:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has been known for centuries and is becoming more widely acknowledged everyday that one of the major keys to a physically healthy body is a body that is also mentally healthy. I am 52 years old and have smoked pot regularly since my early 20's. I have never felt the need to move on to herion, cocaine or alcohol or any other drug. I am and always have been a hard working tax paying responsible faith based person who was married for 25 years and raised two beautiful daughters. Never been in any kind of trouble and am well respected amongst my peers and in my community.
In my opinion we should not only legalize pot but should extract the active ingredient (THC) put it in the water supply and have everyone ingest it daily. I'm sure that this idea scares the hell out of many people as they assume that the world would become nothing but a bunch of zombies sitting around laughing and ingesting mega tons of Cheetoes. But as far as my experience and the experiences of most of the people I know that use pot this scenario simply is not correct. There are people with obsessive/addicitve personalities that cannot control their obsessions whether it is food, sex, alcohol, caffeine, work or any one of many other things. Obsession and addiction is a behavioral issue, the target of the obsession or addiction means nothing.
The only reason pot is not legal is because the people driving the bus in this country have not figured out a way to make the same kind of money from pot that they can make inventing and selling designer drugs and replacing the money they make incarcerating or "rehabbing" those who use pot. The idea that the reason pot is illegal is for our own safety is nothing but a snow job. If that were the case then cigarettes, alcohol, fatty foods, industrial pollution, combustable engines etc. etc. etc. would be illegal....
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» RE: so silly.... just smoke pot...
Posted by: Felonious Punk
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Posted by: drricklippin on Feb 28, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your premise about any belief having a measurable physiologic effect is correct. But alas underappreciated.
My experience has been mostly with US workers and their belief systems. Generally there is a great deal of anxiety about job security, mistrust and sometimes hoplessness when job loss occurs.
I believe many segments of US workforce abuse antidepressants -mostly SSRIs.
I have written about this in Dr Jay Cohen's good E-Newsletter Scroll down to July/Sept 2004
I would submit that more antidepressants are not the answer
Thanks Again,
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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» RE: Depression Among US Workers-URL PROVIDED
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: cindyn on Feb 28, 2008 9:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These drugs work, but they must be given time to take full effect. Also, Prozac is an old first-generation drug; the newer ones are far better.
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» RE: Antidepressants are for real
Posted by: abido0
» RE: Antidepressants are for real
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: AJWeishar on Feb 28, 2008 9:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: anthony weishar
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: anthony weishar
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: irisgray on Feb 28, 2008 10:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wrong. Sure, I was fine for a couple of days, probably while the remainder of the drug worked its way out of my system. After that? You'd better hold on; it's going to be a bumpy ride. I fought with my friends. I fought with my partner. I yelled at my cats. I burst into tears for no apparent reason. I was so filled with anxiety that I couldn't bear to leave the house for fear that something horrible would happen while I was gone.
But apparently my experiences don't count! Silly me.
This seems to be doing the exact same thing that everyone accuses the drug companies of doing: trying to get people to accept a biased study, only this time, biased AGAINST drugs instead of in favour of them..
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» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: babs
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: abido0
» Pay attention to percentages
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: Shey
» Of course your experience doesn't count...!
Posted by: mjabele
» "...and personal experience "ISN'T" really allowed to factor into..."
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: astralman on Feb 28, 2008 10:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. no one is out to get you. there are no mad scientists teaming up with shadowy government officials concocting drugs to subdue and control the population.
3. mental illness has been around since time immemorial, thankfully we've reached a point in time where people have the option to cure or effectively manage mental disease.
4. no one is forcing you to take an type of psychoactive drug, sedative, mood stabilizer, or whatever else is out there.
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» RE: more paranoia over drugs no one is forcing you to take
Posted by: abido0
» RE: more paranoia over drugs no one is forcing you to take
Posted by: astralman
» RE: more paranoia over drugs no one is forcing you to take
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: opmoc on Feb 28, 2008 12:42 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is that society now expects everyone to conform and be the same - and when they don't they are labelled and coerced to seek treatment. Much of the time all they really want and need is someone to completely love them and accept them exactly as they are. A hug and a cuddle can be far more effective than a pill.
People tend to worry about the most ridiculous things and the mind goes into a kind of loop of self torture. One technique that can really work is to mentally box off this horrendous worry and shift it to a side of your mind where you will leave it to be dealt with later. In the meantime the worry will often resolve itself and no longer be an issue.
UK Mental Health Statistics
US Mental Health Statistics
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» RE: 26.2 percent of Americans suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: 26.2 percent of Americans suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: 26.2 percent of Americans suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: Felonious Punk on Feb 28, 2008 12:55 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, evaluating and diagnosing depression is exceedingly difficult, as most of the symptoms are subjective and people have different symptoms that affect them in different ways. Two reasons obviously have an effect on the studies and their results.
Yes, pharm companies want to make a buck. What else are they supposed to do? They're not charities. Yes, there's selective manipulation of studies, but if you look hard there's plenty of classes of medications where study results differ, sometimes by a great degree. Also, every study is not equally valuable. And yes, the FDA has its problems and tends to support the big companies more than the consumers. But don't blame them, blame the GOP and their deregulation mania for crippling the FDA.
As for side effects, the recent crop of meds have significantly fewer side effects, and most new ones cause no sexual side effects at all. I have not suffered from ANY side effects in over a decade.
And don't tell me it's all placebo. Most people on anti-depressants have had to try multiple meds before finding one that works, and every time you have to try a new one your expectation are even lower. If placebo worked, you wouldn't need to try more than one.
So, if you're not a doctor, if you've never been in that deep, dark hole, or you've never been close to someone in that situation, as far as I'm concerned YOU HAVE NO VALUABLE OPINION ON THE SUBJECT.
How could you? Could you judge the effectiveness of pain meds if you've never been in excruciating pain and taken them? Of course not.
Mental illness is still a stigmatized class of diseases, as anyone who suffers from them can easily tell you. People do not treat the mentally ill the same way they treat people with other illnesses, plain and simple. Sufferers are often scorned and ridiculed.
Exercise can help dramatically, as can massage, but sometimes just going for a walk is a daunting challenge. Hell, just getting out of bed can feel like running a marathon.
This is where anti-depressants help a great deal. By removing the physical handicaps depression puts on the body, and clearing up some of the fog in your mind, these meds give the patient a real chance of climbing out of the hole.
And if you've never been in that hole, you have NO idea what you're talking about.
Oh, and by the way, from my own personal experience and that of the few people I know who have suffered and tried smoking pot to relieve depression, it only makes it worse. Yes, your mood improves for a short period of time, but it further inhibits your motivation and aggravates your hindered mental clarity, two of the most debilitating symptoms of depression. So, no, that's not such a great idea.
Also, I've tried a slew of herbal and homeopathic remedies, and they haven't done squat for me. And if you're a proponent of such therapeutics, find me some studies that prove their effectiveness outranks that of meds. You won't. I've looked. If you like, hit Lexus Nexis. I have. There's nothing there.
So don't go on about how there are better/cheaper/safer ways to relieve depression and other mental illnesses if you don't have the evidence to back it up, especially commenting on an article about faulty studies.
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» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: Granny Annie
» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: Shey
» I've seen many people discontinue SSRI's without any difficulty...
Posted by: mjabele
» Sorry...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Sorry...
Posted by: Shey
» Whoa...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kenhymes on Feb 28, 2008 1:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In addition to children, thousands of Americans, more all the time, are being subjected to forced commitment, which then leads to treatment without consent. Users of other drugs, such as alcohol or pot, are also ordered into "therapy" by judges, which leads them into non-consensual use of psychotropics.
The negative long-term effects of these drugs are well-documented and often severe or life-threatening. Even Lithium, called "safe as salt" by so many doctors, has led to kidney failure in many people. Posters who say the drugs work for them: okay, fine, get back to me in twenty years and then we'll talk about your sample of one.
The broader issue is the increasing reliance on these drugs to "solve" social problems. The rhetorical effect is to put the onus on the person showing symptoms. This is a classic fallacy known to any decent family therapist. the person with the weird behavior is rarely the source of the problem, it is usually someone with more authority and more options. And so we as a society are playing this scenario out on a large scale: the disabled, the young, the elderly, the imprisoned... in short, the most vulnerable among us, are being told "it's all your problem." It's only the middle and upper class who have the freedom to say "I made a choice that was right for me." For the rest, it is punitive medicine designed to control and closet, and the drugged person will pay in time for the short-term fix they are allowing the rest of us.
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» RE: Ummm, yes they are forcing people
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: Ummm, yes they are forcing people
Posted by: abido0
» RE: Ummm, yes they are forcing people
Posted by: astralman
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Posted by: rmforall on Feb 28, 2008 9:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
formaldehyde is formaldehyde, whether from trailers, dark wines and liquors,
tobacco or wood smoke, faulty stoves and heaters, or aspartame, then all
these sources have to be discussed publicly, vigorously, accurately, now,
since it is neurotoxic and carcinogenic, impairing fertility and increasing
birth defects -- right to life issues, anyone? ---
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/1455 --- FEMA slow to
safety test Katrina toxic trailers, Charles Babington of Associated Press --
1 ppm formaldehyde in air is about half the daily dose from 3 cans aspartame
diet soda and ten times the 1999 EPA alarm level for drinking water: Murray
2007.07.23 --- Rich Murray rmforall@comcast.net 505-501-2298 1943 Otowi
Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
formaldehyde in FEMA trailers and other sources (aspartame, dark wines and
liquors, tobacco smoke): Murray 2008.01.30
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.htm
Wednesday, January 30, 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/1508
The FEMA trailers give about the same amount of formaldehyde daily as from a
quart of dark wine or liquor, or two quarts (6 12-oz cans) of aspartame diet
soda, from their over 1 tenth gram methanol impurity (one part in 10,000),
which the body quickly makes into formaldehyde -- enough to be the major
cause of "morning after" alcohol hangovers.
Methanol and formaldehyde also result from many fruits and vegetables,
tobacco and wood smoke, heater and vehicle exhaust, household chemicals and
cleaners, cosmetics, and new cars, drapes, carpets, furniture,
particleboard, mobile homes, buildings, leather... so all these sources add
up and interact with many other toxic chemicals.
BN Ames and LS Gold, 1998, have presented detailed information that there is
no increase in recent decades for most cancers, and that common carcinogens
do not result in significant exposures to the average human population.
However, individuals are not average -- each person has a unique genetic
makeup, resulting in a huge range of variation of vulnerability to specific
chemicals, as is well evidenced in the case of methanol, formaldehyde, and
formic acid, especially with regard to behavioral effects.
Each is subject to very wide ranges of exposure levels.
Many are in especially vulnerable groups, depending on diet, obesity, sex,
exercise, life stress, age from conception to very old, unusually severe
toxic exposures, injuries, and diseases.
It is clear that a variety of multiple chemical sensitivity syndromes do
exist, often with remarkable hypersensitivity.
Methanol, formaldehyde, and formic acid toxicity are unusual, in that humans
are far more vulnerable than any other mammal, as much as ten to sixty-fold,
which complicates the utility of animal data.
The unusually long human life span also increases the role of long-term
chronic low-level exposure.
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Posted by: Turiye on Feb 28, 2008 11:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The era my Mom was from pre-depression(Money not Mental)did not believe in Psychiatry, fearing it would have others thinking cannot marry one of their kids, they're loons!
I know in my late teens i was Clinically depressed, sleep 16 or so hours a a day and such, begged Mom to let me see someone, but no way.
As I entered my early 20's I was getting my 2nd degree realized I could no longer take exams, froze, sat in a chair motionless until class was over. Never slept, days on end, got to the point it was just too much. Dr's told me one after another you are depressed, prescribed anti-depressants, triggered manic episodes with psychotic breaks at times, would have killed you with my bare hands if you looked at me sideways. I kept saying, to doctors, I am awake 8 days on end, extreme sexual encounters, voices, always my own asking repetative questions, it was always any word that began with psy, if I did not spell it in my mind correctly I did it over end over, all the while not sleeping, but I never spoke aloud while the voices, my voice, taunted me. You would have thought after 10 Docs and many Psychiatrists they would have caught on.
Even in 2008, Psychiatrists(stupid, vapid ones)prescribe anti-depressants to Bi-Polar persons. They are NEVER to be prescribed to Bi-Polar sufferers, they trigger manic episodes. I was finally diagnosed at the age of 40. I take a drug for Epileptics and I keep Risperdal on hand in case I get manic but rarely need it any more.
The stigma attached to Mental Illness is absurd, listening to the non-sick, judgemental comments from so many posters. I am not saying over-prescribing is not a problem, it is done for pain, aches, whatever, not just Mental Illness. Pharmaceutical companies ARE out for profit, yet there are many of us that are seriously ill when not on meds.
I do hope, though, that many of you that could possibly be Bi-Polar and a shrink tries to prescribe an anti-depressant, say NO! They are 3 years out from an anti-depressant that people that have Bi-Polar Syndrome MAY be able to use. Teens the depression is noticeable, as you enter your 20's the Mania takes over.
Be smart, research Psychiatry periodicals and be your own advocate, no one else cares enough.
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Posted by: aberdeen on Feb 29, 2008 12:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I often find myself in relatively "good spirits" when things sort of go my way and when goals are somewhat met and, "depressed" when things don't go very well and too many goals are not reached for whatever reason.
Am I bi-polar, or am I just a human being with problems, pretty much the same as every other human being I've ever met?
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» RE: Is Depression really an Illness?
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: Is Depression really an Illness?
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: talkville on Feb 29, 2008 2:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: donl51 on Feb 29, 2008 7:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ronheri on Feb 29, 2008 9:04 AM
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Posted by: Detoxer on Mar 1, 2008 7:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is good news because a Swedish study showed that 52% of the 2006 suicides by women on antidepressants. Since antidepressants work no better than placebos and are less effective than exercise in dealing with depression.
There is a prescription drug epidemic and these are leaders in the list of terribe abuses.
Steve Hayes
http://novusdetox.com
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» RE: Detoxer
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: ArtemInox on Mar 4, 2008 10:31 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can see taking some sort of drug to take the mind off things and just get your head out of the norm for a while. What I cant understand is taking a prescription drug every day, and spending your life in a constantly medicated state. This is what people that are prescribed these drugs are expected to do. That just seems much much worse than someone that smokes a bit of weed or has a few drinks a couple times a week to unwind, de-stress, whatever. Being constantly high or altered is what an addict tries to do.
http://www.addictedtoaggravation.com/
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» RE: There are plenty of very good reasons
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Malkavian on Mar 26, 2008 9:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've seens lots of people NOT benefit from those drugs. Didn't cure their depression and I've seen people become fat and lose sexual drive. Often those people were suffering from severe depression.
Yet, when my wife got a (dunno the word in English?) "birth depression" the SSRI Zoloft helped tremendously. Without the drug she was almost completely unable to function, but the drug just took that edge off and allowed normal functioning. She tried to discontinue the medicine after some 4-5 months, and she went right back into the hole. So she kept it up for a good year all in all and she got completely cured. She had absolutely no ill effects.
I'ts quite variable - and THAT I don't think the pharma companies will admit. They want drugs for _all_ people. Also, it's clear in my mind that they downplay the dangers of the products: addiction, weight gain, sexual dysfunction, etc.
I gotta admit that after talking to people about SSRIs and almost losing my mother to the cholesterol statin drug Simvastatin I've begun reading those notes inside the medicine packages closely.
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Posted by: wisegalah on Feb 28, 2008 3:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All conflicts of interest must be prominently published, including the constant cross flow of individuals from the drug companies and regulatory authorities.
Anyone moving from one to the other should be required to wait for a full two years between leaving one and joining the other, AND the previous connections published with every decision in which that individual is involved.
All studies must be publically and freely available at the cost of the drug companies, all including those which produce findings which serve the public's interest. Heavy penalties for companies which hide information which does not serve their interests but which is of importance to the general public.
And this is just the start.
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Posted by: Peter111000 on Feb 28, 2008 3:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Science and scientists present themselves as objective and honest but are, in truth, bought and paid for by the businesses that own them.
This is not just in the medical industries but across all industries. University science depends on industry for funding. If there are any honest individual scientists why are they not saying this loudly and often?
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» RE: The ownership of science
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: The ownership of science
Posted by: stellabloo
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Posted by: Brian Charles on Feb 28, 2008 3:59 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7263494.stm
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Posted by: Shey on Feb 28, 2008 5:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These effects range over a wide spectrum of symptoms, perhaps the most common being IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) so severe as to be debilitating in daily life. These same symptoms can occur while taking these drugs, although when they begin during withdrawal, they often improve or disappear temporarily when medication is started again.
You wont find this information on any website or in any publication that has any connection to the FDA or the NIH, much less the pharma companies that make these drugs. But there are antidepressant withdrawal support groups all over the Internet.
Of course there are also shockingly serious mental and emotional side effects involved in the attempt to withdraw from antidepressant dependency as well, including a return of depression far more severe that what was experienced before taking them in the first place, including suicidal tendencies.
These problems are especially severe with SSRI's (Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil) and even more widely experienced and severe with the newer class of "atypical antidepressants" (Effexor, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin and Serzone), the latter (Serzone) being quietly taken off the market several years ago because of serious links to suicides and attempted suicides, in people of all ages.
These "atypical antidepressants" combine the workings of SSRI's with targeting neurotransmitters other than the usual ones associated with Serotonin.
From this website,
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/medications_depression.htm
"In may 2007, the FDA recommended a new warning label for all antidepressant medications. The current 'black box' label includes a warning about the increased risk if suicidal thinking and behavior in children and adolescents.
The FDA wants to expand this warning to include young adults from ages 18-24. Children and young adults should also be monitored for the emergence of agitation, irritability and unusual changes in behavior, as these symptoms indicate that the depression is getting worse."
Is anyone actually listening,?? We're really supposed to believe that age 24 is some magical cut-off point beyond which no one will be at risk for these literally life threatening "side effects"?
Wake up people, Aldous Huxley's Soma was an aspirin, compared to what we're ingesting today, doing possibly irreparable damage to both out bodies and minds.
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» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: kabac55
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: Shey
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: tsprague
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: tsprague
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: kabac55
» RE: A major consideration / A double-edged sword?
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: solrev on Feb 28, 2008 5:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ladyoracle on Feb 28, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Think what you will, I don't care. But for me, it took Prozac to help me entertain the non-self-destructive thoughts and implement them in even the most banal moments of "crisis."
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» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: lissajayne
» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Prozac helped me
Posted by: EdinIowa
» It's called depression, smart-ass!
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It's called depression, smart-ass!
Posted by: Shey
» There any peer-reviewed studies that back that? (NT)
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: There any peer-reviewed studies that back that? (NT)
Posted by: zenbruder
» One case doesn't a study make (NT)
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: One case doesn't a study make (NT)
Posted by: YogiBear
» I feel a lot better...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: I feel a lot better...
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: nobody4prez on Feb 28, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Feb 28, 2008 6:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They spend more on marketing and public relations efforts than just about any other industry, much of which is dishonest and is targeted at doctors and at patients. They also work overtime to cover up the negative side effects or inconclusive results in their studies.
What's sad is how many people buy into the marketing and propaganda. Big Pharma has managed to create non-existent "diseases" out of thin air, most notably ADHD, and they've also managed to replace therapy and therapy-drug models for treating depression and mental illness with a daily high-dose drug regimen (far more profitable for pharmaceutical companies).
These massive and far-reaching PR campaigns extend from the professor's offices at the most prestigious universities in the U.S., all across the print, television, radio, and Internet, and even into remote Third World countries (where more and more of the new drug trials are carried out, safe from watching eyes).
It's a big, ugly mess - and a very profitable one, which is why things continue under business as usual (notice how pharmaceutical drugs haven't come much during the "vigorous health care debate" between the Presidential candidates?).
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 28, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GO LOCAL AND GROW YOUR OWN NATURAL MEDICINES AND FIGHT TO TEAR DOWN THE HEMP BAN WALL !! Like food, going local is the only way we're going to be prepared to survive the big PEAK OIL BOMB !
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» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: Shey
» RE: It all started 71 years ago.
Posted by: zenbruder
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Posted by: kclaf on Feb 28, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It has been
Posted by: irisgray
» RE: It has been
Posted by: Shey
» RE: It has been
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: It has been
Posted by: Shey
» RE: It has been
Posted by: ndm
» And yet, your experience is ONLY as an energy therapist, right...?
Posted by: mjabele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: brunowe on Feb 28, 2008 6:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is one thing if someone goes to a G.P., describes symptoms of depression and gets a Paxil prescription and it's left at that. It's something else if the decision is made in the course of psychotherapy and the prescription is either given by the therapist (if a psychiatrist) or by a psychiatrist who is in touch with the therapist and if the effects are monitored in the subsequent therapy.
Much has been made, legitimately, of the role of Big Pharma in this. The role of HMOs also needs to be spotlighted. They are inclined to favor pharmaceuticals over therapy because the former are cheaper.
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Posted by: opmoc on Feb 28, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know this from the fact that my sister took one of these drugs for over 20 years - and also from other research about the condition.
I've never taken anything for it - but was considering asking my doctor to prescribe it.
The story of how these drugs got approval is absolutely horrendous and I am now convinced that my sister's early death was due to taking one of them.
DEADLY MEDICINE link
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Posted by: steven w on Feb 28, 2008 7:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» correction: "a peanut hull"
Posted by: steven w
» RE: correction: "a peanut hull"
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: I do not really know if it faith-based or not,
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: I do not really know if it faith-based or not,
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: steven w on Feb 28, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: garry minor on Feb 28, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I have no doubt these drugs do help some people, there are other much safer drugs and treatments that we could be using that we never hear of. Its the same censorship that robbed us of the most useful plant on the planet during the 1930's, which itself could be used to transform our world into a place we wouldn't need these antidepressants, the safest medicine on the planet, kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp!
In 2006 at the Memorial University of Newfoundland, a researcher named Xia Zhang discovered that THC actually promotes the growth of new brain cells, improving memory, fighting depression and mood disorders. THC was also clinically proven to destroy tumors by Dr. Manuel Guzman of Complutense University of Madrid Spain in 2000. Our Government knew this in 1974. THC is also proven to prevent Alzheimers, and cannabinoids are being used in Canada and Europe to treat MS, autism, epilepsy, diabetes, migraine, arthritis, obesity, chronic pain, asthma, emphysema, herpes, skin disorders, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, OCD, Crohns disease, and more. The only side effects being an increased appetite which is a healthy condition and it makes you feel good! OH NO!!! All mammals birds, fish and reptiles have cannabinoid receptors throughout their body that work independent of those that govern the heart and breathing. This is why cannabis cannot kill you!
Further, anything made from oil, coal, timber, or cotton can be made ecological friendly with cannabis hemp. All paper, plastics, packaging, paints, varnishes, fuels, lubricants, textiles, plywood, structural components, many cosmetics, and health foods can all be made with it, over 25,0000 known products. Canvas is Dutch for cannabis. Its seed is the single most nutritious thing you can eat! Henry Ford built and fueled a car primarily with hemp, its cellulose plastic panels ten times stronger than steel. Neither he or Diesel intended to run their engines with petroleum. One acre of hemp equals four of timber for pulp and you harvest it every year, tree's take a lifetime. It is at the very minimum four times more efficient than corn, kenaf, or sugar cane for ethanol production. It grows without most fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in climates and conditions other crops wont grow.
Cannabis hemp industrialization will create millions of Earth friendly jobs from the farm to the laboratory, begin a redistribution of wealth, bringing in a world of social harmony and peace. No need to fight over oil or chop down any more tree's.
Kaneh bosm is also the main ingredient in the Holy Oil God instructed Moses to make in Exodus 30:23, and is named as an incense tree in Song of Songs 4:14. It is also named In Isaiah 43:24, Jeremiah 6:20, and Ezekiel 27:19. The title Christ/Messiah means literally covered in oil, Anointed! Calamus, the plant the Greeks mistranslated from the Hebrew Kaneh bosm could also be quite effective in treating mood disorders as its active chemical asarone is a precursor to the psychedelic MDMA, which is now being used to treat PTSD in combat veterans.
Food, fuel, shelter, medicine, pleasure, spirituality, unity! The Tree of Life, kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp!
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» RE: Why are we so depressed?
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Why are we so depressed?
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Why are we so depressed?
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» Don't bogart that joint, my friend...
Posted by: Cooltruth
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Posted by: xvictor on Feb 28, 2008 8:00 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: babs
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: xvictor
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: Prozac, etc
Posted by: xvictor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dsmidiman on Feb 28, 2008 8:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has been known for centuries and is becoming more widely acknowledged everyday that one of the major keys to a physically healthy body is a body that is also mentally healthy. I am 52 years old and have smoked pot regularly since my early 20's. I have never felt the need to move on to herion, cocaine or alcohol or any other drug. I am and always have been a hard working tax paying responsible faith based person who was married for 25 years and raised two beautiful daughters. Never been in any kind of trouble and am well respected amongst my peers and in my community.
In my opinion we should not only legalize pot but should extract the active ingredient (THC) put it in the water supply and have everyone ingest it daily. I'm sure that this idea scares the hell out of many people as they assume that the world would become nothing but a bunch of zombies sitting around laughing and ingesting mega tons of Cheetoes. But as far as my experience and the experiences of most of the people I know that use pot this scenario simply is not correct. There are people with obsessive/addicitve personalities that cannot control their obsessions whether it is food, sex, alcohol, caffeine, work or any one of many other things. Obsession and addiction is a behavioral issue, the target of the obsession or addiction means nothing.
The only reason pot is not legal is because the people driving the bus in this country have not figured out a way to make the same kind of money from pot that they can make inventing and selling designer drugs and replacing the money they make incarcerating or "rehabbing" those who use pot. The idea that the reason pot is illegal is for our own safety is nothing but a snow job. If that were the case then cigarettes, alcohol, fatty foods, industrial pollution, combustable engines etc. etc. etc. would be illegal....
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» RE: so silly.... just smoke pot...
Posted by: Felonious Punk
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Posted by: drricklippin on Feb 28, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your premise about any belief having a measurable physiologic effect is correct. But alas underappreciated.
My experience has been mostly with US workers and their belief systems. Generally there is a great deal of anxiety about job security, mistrust and sometimes hoplessness when job loss occurs.
I believe many segments of US workforce abuse antidepressants -mostly SSRIs.
I have written about this in Dr Jay Cohen's good E-Newsletter Scroll down to July/Sept 2004
I would submit that more antidepressants are not the answer
Thanks Again,
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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» RE: Depression Among US Workers-URL PROVIDED
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: cindyn on Feb 28, 2008 9:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These drugs work, but they must be given time to take full effect. Also, Prozac is an old first-generation drug; the newer ones are far better.
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» RE: Antidepressants are for real
Posted by: abido0
» RE: Antidepressants are for real
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: AJWeishar on Feb 28, 2008 9:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: anthony weishar
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: anthony weishar
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: irisgray on Feb 28, 2008 10:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wrong. Sure, I was fine for a couple of days, probably while the remainder of the drug worked its way out of my system. After that? You'd better hold on; it's going to be a bumpy ride. I fought with my friends. I fought with my partner. I yelled at my cats. I burst into tears for no apparent reason. I was so filled with anxiety that I couldn't bear to leave the house for fear that something horrible would happen while I was gone.
But apparently my experiences don't count! Silly me.
This seems to be doing the exact same thing that everyone accuses the drug companies of doing: trying to get people to accept a biased study, only this time, biased AGAINST drugs instead of in favour of them..
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» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: babs
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: abido0
» Pay attention to percentages
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Antidepressants
Posted by: Shey
» Of course your experience doesn't count...!
Posted by: mjabele
» "...and personal experience "ISN'T" really allowed to factor into..."
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: astralman on Feb 28, 2008 10:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. no one is out to get you. there are no mad scientists teaming up with shadowy government officials concocting drugs to subdue and control the population.
3. mental illness has been around since time immemorial, thankfully we've reached a point in time where people have the option to cure or effectively manage mental disease.
4. no one is forcing you to take an type of psychoactive drug, sedative, mood stabilizer, or whatever else is out there.
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» RE: more paranoia over drugs no one is forcing you to take
Posted by: abido0
» RE: more paranoia over drugs no one is forcing you to take
Posted by: astralman
» RE: more paranoia over drugs no one is forcing you to take
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: opmoc on Feb 28, 2008 12:42 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is that society now expects everyone to conform and be the same - and when they don't they are labelled and coerced to seek treatment. Much of the time all they really want and need is someone to completely love them and accept them exactly as they are. A hug and a cuddle can be far more effective than a pill.
People tend to worry about the most ridiculous things and the mind goes into a kind of loop of self torture. One technique that can really work is to mentally box off this horrendous worry and shift it to a side of your mind where you will leave it to be dealt with later. In the meantime the worry will often resolve itself and no longer be an issue.
UK Mental Health Statistics
US Mental Health Statistics
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» RE: 26.2 percent of Americans suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: 26.2 percent of Americans suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: 26.2 percent of Americans suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: Felonious Punk on Feb 28, 2008 12:55 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, evaluating and diagnosing depression is exceedingly difficult, as most of the symptoms are subjective and people have different symptoms that affect them in different ways. Two reasons obviously have an effect on the studies and their results.
Yes, pharm companies want to make a buck. What else are they supposed to do? They're not charities. Yes, there's selective manipulation of studies, but if you look hard there's plenty of classes of medications where study results differ, sometimes by a great degree. Also, every study is not equally valuable. And yes, the FDA has its problems and tends to support the big companies more than the consumers. But don't blame them, blame the GOP and their deregulation mania for crippling the FDA.
As for side effects, the recent crop of meds have significantly fewer side effects, and most new ones cause no sexual side effects at all. I have not suffered from ANY side effects in over a decade.
And don't tell me it's all placebo. Most people on anti-depressants have had to try multiple meds before finding one that works, and every time you have to try a new one your expectation are even lower. If placebo worked, you wouldn't need to try more than one.
So, if you're not a doctor, if you've never been in that deep, dark hole, or you've never been close to someone in that situation, as far as I'm concerned YOU HAVE NO VALUABLE OPINION ON THE SUBJECT.
How could you? Could you judge the effectiveness of pain meds if you've never been in excruciating pain and taken them? Of course not.
Mental illness is still a stigmatized class of diseases, as anyone who suffers from them can easily tell you. People do not treat the mentally ill the same way they treat people with other illnesses, plain and simple. Sufferers are often scorned and ridiculed.
Exercise can help dramatically, as can massage, but sometimes just going for a walk is a daunting challenge. Hell, just getting out of bed can feel like running a marathon.
This is where anti-depressants help a great deal. By removing the physical handicaps depression puts on the body, and clearing up some of the fog in your mind, these meds give the patient a real chance of climbing out of the hole.
And if you've never been in that hole, you have NO idea what you're talking about.
Oh, and by the way, from my own personal experience and that of the few people I know who have suffered and tried smoking pot to relieve depression, it only makes it worse. Yes, your mood improves for a short period of time, but it further inhibits your motivation and aggravates your hindered mental clarity, two of the most debilitating symptoms of depression. So, no, that's not such a great idea.
Also, I've tried a slew of herbal and homeopathic remedies, and they haven't done squat for me. And if you're a proponent of such therapeutics, find me some studies that prove their effectiveness outranks that of meds. You won't. I've looked. If you like, hit Lexus Nexis. I have. There's nothing there.
So don't go on about how there are better/cheaper/safer ways to relieve depression and other mental illnesses if you don't have the evidence to back it up, especially commenting on an article about faulty studies.
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» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: Granny Annie
» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: Shey
» I've seen many people discontinue SSRI's without any difficulty...
Posted by: mjabele
» Sorry...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Sorry...
Posted by: Shey
» Whoa...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: If you haven't dealt with, shut up
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: kenhymes on Feb 28, 2008 1:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In addition to children, thousands of Americans, more all the time, are being subjected to forced commitment, which then leads to treatment without consent. Users of other drugs, such as alcohol or pot, are also ordered into "therapy" by judges, which leads them into non-consensual use of psychotropics.
The negative long-term effects of these drugs are well-documented and often severe or life-threatening. Even Lithium, called "safe as salt" by so many doctors, has led to kidney failure in many people. Posters who say the drugs work for them: okay, fine, get back to me in twenty years and then we'll talk about your sample of one.
The broader issue is the increasing reliance on these drugs to "solve" social problems. The rhetorical effect is to put the onus on the person showing symptoms. This is a classic fallacy known to any decent family therapist. the person with the weird behavior is rarely the source of the problem, it is usually someone with more authority and more options. And so we as a society are playing this scenario out on a large scale: the disabled, the young, the elderly, the imprisoned... in short, the most vulnerable among us, are being told "it's all your problem." It's only the middle and upper class who have the freedom to say "I made a choice that was right for me." For the rest, it is punitive medicine designed to control and closet, and the drugged person will pay in time for the short-term fix they are allowing the rest of us.
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» RE: Ummm, yes they are forcing people
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: Ummm, yes they are forcing people
Posted by: abido0
» RE: Ummm, yes they are forcing people
Posted by: astralman
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Posted by: rmforall on Feb 28, 2008 9:04 PM
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formaldehyde is formaldehyde, whether from trailers, dark wines and liquors,
tobacco or wood smoke, faulty stoves and heaters, or aspartame, then all
these sources have to be discussed publicly, vigorously, accurately, now,
since it is neurotoxic and carcinogenic, impairing fertility and increasing
birth defects -- right to life issues, anyone? ---
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/1455 --- FEMA slow to
safety test Katrina toxic trailers, Charles Babington of Associated Press --
1 ppm formaldehyde in air is about half the daily dose from 3 cans aspartame
diet soda and ten times the 1999 EPA alarm level for drinking water: Murray
2007.07.23 --- Rich Murray rmforall@comcast.net 505-501-2298 1943 Otowi
Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
formaldehyde in FEMA trailers and other sources (aspartame, dark wines and
liquors, tobacco smoke): Murray 2008.01.30
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.htm
Wednesday, January 30, 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/1508
The FEMA trailers give about the same amount of formaldehyde daily as from a
quart of dark wine or liquor, or two quarts (6 12-oz cans) of aspartame diet
soda, from their over 1 tenth gram methanol impurity (one part in 10,000),
which the body quickly makes into formaldehyde -- enough to be the major
cause of "morning after" alcohol hangovers.
Methanol and formaldehyde also result from many fruits and vegetables,
tobacco and wood smoke, heater and vehicle exhaust, household chemicals and
cleaners, cosmetics, and new cars, drapes, carpets, furniture,
particleboard, mobile homes, buildings, leather... so all these sources add
up and interact with many other toxic chemicals.
BN Ames and LS Gold, 1998, have presented detailed information that there is
no increase in recent decades for most cancers, and that common carcinogens
do not result in significant exposures to the average human population.
However, individuals are not average -- each person has a unique genetic
makeup, resulting in a huge range of variation of vulnerability to specific
chemicals, as is well evidenced in the case of methanol, formaldehyde, and
formic acid, especially with regard to behavioral effects.
Each is subject to very wide ranges of exposure levels.
Many are in especially vulnerable groups, depending on diet, obesity, sex,
exercise, life stress, age from conception to very old, unusually severe
toxic exposures, injuries, and diseases.
It is clear that a variety of multiple chemical sensitivity syndromes do
exist, often with remarkable hypersensitivity.
Methanol, formaldehyde, and formic acid toxicity are unusual, in that humans
are far more vulnerable than any other mammal, as much as ten to sixty-fold,
which complicates the utility of animal data.
The unusually long human life span also increases the role of long-term
chronic low-level exposure.
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Posted by: Turiye on Feb 28, 2008 11:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The era my Mom was from pre-depression(Money not Mental)did not believe in Psychiatry, fearing it would have others thinking cannot marry one of their kids, they're loons!
I know in my late teens i was Clinically depressed, sleep 16 or so hours a a day and such, begged Mom to let me see someone, but no way.
As I entered my early 20's I was getting my 2nd degree realized I could no longer take exams, froze, sat in a chair motionless until class was over. Never slept, days on end, got to the point it was just too much. Dr's told me one after another you are depressed, prescribed anti-depressants, triggered manic episodes with psychotic breaks at times, would have killed you with my bare hands if you looked at me sideways. I kept saying, to doctors, I am awake 8 days on end, extreme sexual encounters, voices, always my own asking repetative questions, it was always any word that began with psy, if I did not spell it in my mind correctly I did it over end over, all the while not sleeping, but I never spoke aloud while the voices, my voice, taunted me. You would have thought after 10 Docs and many Psychiatrists they would have caught on.
Even in 2008, Psychiatrists(stupid, vapid ones)prescribe anti-depressants to Bi-Polar persons. They are NEVER to be prescribed to Bi-Polar sufferers, they trigger manic episodes. I was finally diagnosed at the age of 40. I take a drug for Epileptics and I keep Risperdal on hand in case I get manic but rarely need it any more.
The stigma attached to Mental Illness is absurd, listening to the non-sick, judgemental comments from so many posters. I am not saying over-prescribing is not a problem, it is done for pain, aches, whatever, not just Mental Illness. Pharmaceutical companies ARE out for profit, yet there are many of us that are seriously ill when not on meds.
I do hope, though, that many of you that could possibly be Bi-Polar and a shrink tries to prescribe an anti-depressant, say NO! They are 3 years out from an anti-depressant that people that have Bi-Polar Syndrome MAY be able to use. Teens the depression is noticeable, as you enter your 20's the Mania takes over.
Be smart, research Psychiatry periodicals and be your own advocate, no one else cares enough.
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Posted by: aberdeen on Feb 29, 2008 12:25 AM
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I often find myself in relatively "good spirits" when things sort of go my way and when goals are somewhat met and, "depressed" when things don't go very well and too many goals are not reached for whatever reason.
Am I bi-polar, or am I just a human being with problems, pretty much the same as every other human being I've ever met?
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» RE: Is Depression really an Illness?
Posted by: Felonious Punk
» RE: Is Depression really an Illness?
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: talkville on Feb 29, 2008 2:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: donl51 on Feb 29, 2008 7:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ronheri on Feb 29, 2008 9:04 AM
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Posted by: Detoxer on Mar 1, 2008 7:43 PM
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This is good news because a Swedish study showed that 52% of the 2006 suicides by women on antidepressants. Since antidepressants work no better than placebos and are less effective than exercise in dealing with depression.
There is a prescription drug epidemic and these are leaders in the list of terribe abuses.
Steve Hayes
http://novusdetox.com
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» RE: Detoxer
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: ArtemInox on Mar 4, 2008 10:31 PM
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I can see taking some sort of drug to take the mind off things and just get your head out of the norm for a while. What I cant understand is taking a prescription drug every day, and spending your life in a constantly medicated state. This is what people that are prescribed these drugs are expected to do. That just seems much much worse than someone that smokes a bit of weed or has a few drinks a couple times a week to unwind, de-stress, whatever. Being constantly high or altered is what an addict tries to do.
http://www.addictedtoaggravation.com/
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» RE: There are plenty of very good reasons
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Malkavian on Mar 26, 2008 9:55 AM
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I've seens lots of people NOT benefit from those drugs. Didn't cure their depression and I've seen people become fat and lose sexual drive. Often those people were suffering from severe depression.
Yet, when my wife got a (dunno the word in English?) "birth depression" the SSRI Zoloft helped tremendously. Without the drug she was almost completely unable to function, but the drug just took that edge off and allowed normal functioning. She tried to discontinue the medicine after some 4-5 months, and she went right back into the hole. So she kept it up for a good year all in all and she got completely cured. She had absolutely no ill effects.
I'ts quite variable - and THAT I don't think the pharma companies will admit. They want drugs for _all_ people. Also, it's clear in my mind that they downplay the dangers of the products: addiction, weight gain, sexual dysfunction, etc.
I gotta admit that after talking to people about SSRIs and almost losing my mother to the cholesterol statin drug Simvastatin I've begun reading those notes inside the medicine packages closely.
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